SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, my name is Pamela Stokes-Eggleston, and welcome to You Good, an engaging podcast that delves into the realm of black wellness. I'm joined by my co-host, Onika Mays, and together we welcome you to the podcast, a space for meaningful conversations, fresh perspectives, a place for us. The You Good Podcast is a love letter to our community and an invitation to connect, share, grow, and heal together. We're glad you're here, and we've got a lot to tell you. We're talking about black joy.

SPEAKER_04 0:34

We are talking about black joy today.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Black joy and how we can have more of it, and what is the thing that lights us up? What is the, you know, maybe it's not just one thing, maybe it's three things. You know, what what is what are the things that light us up that bring us joy? And I was thinking about this today, Anika, and I was listening to, who was I listening to a couple of days ago? Like Don Lemon, and he was interviewing Senator Raphael Warnock, who is a pastor and a minister. He ministers actually at the church that Martin Luther King was at in Georgia. And he said this quote, and I will never forget it. When it comes to like the truth, when it comes to the veil being lifted, which we are in the midst of dealing with, and that's where uncomfortability comes in. He said, and I quote, light is an antiseptic. Light is an antiseptic. So that's the unveiling of all of this horrible mess is par for the course, and we have to do it. It is the, it is, what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_04 1:43

Love it. I absolutely love it. Light is the antiseptic. I heard somebody saying, um, I think it was uh an AIDS activist, that what's going on right now, we need to approach it as a lot of the activists did in the 80s. That they protest, protest in the afternoon, grieve in the morning, and dance at night or something like that. Or cry in the morning, protest in the afternoon, and dance at night. I think that's right. And and I feel like that is, and that and I feel like that feels paraphrased from something of our history. Doesn't it feel like it doesn't it feel like something like us? Because that made me think about Alice Walker and her quote around hard times require furious dancing and each and each of us is proof. Um and that joy is always a part of what is happening, and that light being shin on what is happening, whether now or at any difficult time, is a part of the process and a part of the medicine. And something that needs to happen if in order to get well. You know, I think of that roomy quote. Light is is um but about the cracks.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Light is where the crack where it enters you. Light, I'm missing, but we know what the quote is. We'll put it in the show notes.

SPEAKER_04 3:11

We'll find it. We'll find it.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

The wound is where the light enters you. The wound is yeah, where the light enters you. Yeah. But it's it's it's yeah, that's we're dealing with the wound. We're dealing with the abscess. And that's the antiseptic that needs to go on it. So we're in the middle of all that. We're in the muck of all of that. And so it may feel like we don't have agency over our own joy or agency over what that joy looks like in this moment of upheaval, unveiling, revelation. And and so for us as black people, we need to come back to that and remember that. And I think part of how that's being done is whether you agree with it or not, black people saying, We're gonna sit this one out. We're going to not be in the streets, in part because I believe a lot more people would be getting murdered.

SPEAKER_04 4:03

Yeah. And I think we're particip and I think we're sure, sure.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Like we're divesting, you know, Target is Yeah. Target's doing now. So we've definitely done different things community-wide to participate in the overarching thing of what needs to happen. I think part of the issue for me is people have not studied civil rights thoroughly in that movement. They think all the pictures of people marching, and you saw more of those types of pictures. You saw the march on Washington, you saw all of these people, including Martin Luther King Jr., speaking, you know, at the reflective pool, and but you never saw the back end of the work. You know, Maynard um, what's his name? I can't remember. Bayard Rustin. Mayor Rustin, who were behind the scenes working, doing a lot of that behind the scenes um collaboration, pulling that whole event together. And that's what a lot of us are doing. We're doing that, you know, in smaller scales, you know, in our communities. But I think that's where people aren't aren't, you know, they're missing the point. I think they're, they're, they're just sort of like, what's happening? Where can I be more helpful? Or we have people in other communities telling us what we should do. You know, yeah. Out there, like you're gonna be murdered. And I'm like, wake up.

SPEAKER_04 5:21

Right. I yeah, I think there's a lot of layers that I I think there are multiple, I think there are multiple things happening right now. Yes. I think I think there are people who are actively saying this isn't our fight, and and I don't believe that. I don't believe that this isn't our fight. I think this is just representative of what has always been happening. This is just white supremacy in action. So, in the sense that is white supremacy in action, it has always been a problem because white supremacy is a problem in general. And the fact that white supremacy impacts everybody, of course it's going to impact us because it's always impacted us. Right, right, right. So, so to say it's not our fight, I think is I think that's the wrong thing to say. I think what's happening is that other people are being brought into the conversation because it's now impacting them. So that I think is is part of um that I think is part of the problem, that the target has sort of shifted. And I think we've always been a target. I think indigenous people have always been a target. And now that other people are being brought into the conversation because we've always been ignored, because we've always been the target. People are now saying, like, oh my gosh, police are a problem. And we're like, well, well, yeah, they they've always been a problem. You're just simply now noticing that. And I think it's frustrating because when you're always a target and you've always been ignored, it's very hard to say, like, you've never noticed that we've been actually the backbone of this country. We've always been the target. And because you are reluctant to even now to actually acknowledge that, because when that does come up, people say, like, well, this isn't even the time to have that conversation now that's actually being said.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Yeah. Yeah, I I agree wholeheartedly with that. I think that's the frustration. And I, to your earlier point, I don't think we are not jumping in and getting involved. Like we're not not doing anything. Like, obviously, this is a time for us to show up. We're showing up differently, and that's irritating some folks, you know? Absolutely. So, but we're showing up differently. And we have talked and told people and shouted from the rooftops and shouted from mountains that this stuff was going on for years. And if it had to land in the way that it landed, then fine. What are you prepared to do? What are you prepared to do? That that's is it on us always to look at to do the same types of things that we have done historically in the past? And what we're saying, and this is to hold on to our black joy, I think this is part of holding on to our joy and rest and care, is saying we're gonna show up in this way, and it's not gonna be the normal way that you are used to having or seeing or experiencing us showing up.

SPEAKER_04 8:26

Because here's what I will argue people say, well, we're sitting this one out. I I have to push back against that. I think the way that we live our lives is participating in this revolution right now. I will say that that's our way to show up at the revolution. Yeah. And and I'll I'll die on that hill saying that because I I'm not gonna stand up and get shot because I've been standing, my ancestors have been standing up and getting shot. That method hasn't been working. So I'm trying a new tactic. That's not sitting this one out, it's trying a different strategy. That's it. And and I'm sorry if you don't like this new strategy. It's not sitting out, it's trying a different strategy.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

And it's preserving our joy at the end of the day. It's preserving our livelihood, our way of living, our what this is my strategy for saving myself and being well.

SPEAKER_04 9:23

And I'm sorry if that doesn't sort of jive with what you think I need to be doing to preserve democracy. That's what you all did to preserve what you thought was democracy this whole time. So I'm gonna try that out for me and see if that works. And and let's see if what we used to do to preserve democracy, why don't you try our way and we're gonna try your way and see what happens. Why why can't that why can't that be a legitimate conversation? Like what and I'm being I'm being very serious in saying that because I think when people say like we're sitting this one out, I feel like that's still coming from a white lens. And I'm not talking from a white lens anymore. Speaking that language, I'm speaking my language and my strategy and my life for my community. And and I don't I don't know if I need anybody's permission to do that.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

So not the language of negative or extraction, I'm sitting this one out. Yeah. I'm not going to be involved in this thing that you say I need to be involved in, but I'm over here doing this different strategy. I'm shaping this different way of thinking.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

My participation and interconnectedness and causing the least amount of harm in this world is doing this.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 10:44

This is me living the the nama, the yamas and the yamas for myself.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Yes. Yes, the yamas are rules and observances for for Oh yes. Um, I agree. Like I I believe in Satya, truth. I believe in Sentosha, which is contentment or acceptance. And it it's really not acceptance of let me just accept all of this BS that's happening, but more of a resolute, here we are in this moment, now what? Here we are in this moment, what can we extract from this moment?

SPEAKER_02 11:17

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

It's one it's my favorite, one of my favorites. I mean, I think they all are, but it's it's one of my favorite um niyamas because it it brings you back to source self. How can I reflect in this moment on what's happening that's been arduous, horrible? What is the, you know, for lack of a better kind of descriptive thing, is the thing for me to have my glass is half full. What, you know, so that I can fill it up with joy, contentment, happiness, and peace. And also grace, grace for myself, you know, offering grace to feel all the feelings and also have the understanding that I can it's okay for me to be happy and find joy in things without feeling guilty about the feeling or sensation of joy and happiness. I think some of that, and I was just speaking from a little bit from my kind of sort of sensory perception of the world and how things are happening and landing in this moment. Where can I, you know, it's it's not so much as guilt for me. It's not really like, oh, I'm guilty that I'm feeling.

SPEAKER_04 12:21

No, I feel guilt because I think it's it it would be impossible not to, or we wouldn't be having the reactions that we had have. And I think it's definitely tied to the fact that our bodies have always been used for labor. That's why these questions are coming up, because our participation in this process of being used for labor for movements has always been, and I don't just mean for movements, I just mean for labor for this country. It is for votes, for political, for the political process. It's always been assumed that there will be a process that black folks as a monolith will participate. It is it is assumed, and it has always been assumed that our death, our our trauma will always be ignored. Our pain is and it is is nodded at. It is assumed that our and and here's the thing, I don't think that white folks and brown folks don't know about our pain and trauma. I think they know they see it all the time. I think they just accept it as as a cost of doing business. I will say that. And we still expect you to do this. Right. And that's a damn entitlement. And and because it has always been what you have done to make this this stolen land work, this stolen system, this this system of you know, predatory capitalism work. So we're just going to keep assuming that you're going to do it. We're going to keep assuming that you're going to vote the way that you're going to vote and keep doing the things that you're going to keep doing. Because if you don't keep doing it, this whole thing is going to crumble. Right. Well, PS, it's crumbling anyway.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

The things that you're talking about that you're referring to from before, that was putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound. Mm-hmm. Now there's an abscess and now it's infected. Yep. And that's why we're doing different as opposed to same. You know, if there's an abscess, if if if if there's no more band-aids. We're not going to be a band-aid anymore.

SPEAKER_04 14:26

We have been the band-aid, I think.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Mm-hmm. And that's only because of the things that we have been allowed to do. Like we could have been the whole, let's heal the thing if we weren't restricted by laws, by treaties, by doctrines, by hiring practices.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

So in that way, you did it to yourself.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

When you do stuff to us, you do it to yourself.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Black people as a whole are about humanity. If I help myself, I'm helping all. If I work towards my liberation, it's for everybody's liberation.

SPEAKER_04 14:58

And I do think the time has come, I can't remember where I heard this, that someone was saying, this might be as good as it gets for us. So maybe we just need to figure it out for ourselves and and think about healing in that sense. Yeah. It's not going to get any better. Was there uh I think it was uh Resma Menicum was saying during the town hall. Like this might be as good as it gets. So we gotta stop talking about it and let's just focus on the healing part. Where do we go from here? Wow. I know. Let me sit with that for a minute. You know, because the hopeful part of me. I'll send you the clip because when I when I heard it, I was like, oof. And okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

But then there's like, okay, let's let's So that's that's the rock bottom of of the thing. If we are in fact in I don't know if he meant it that way. So I'll I'll listen. I'll I'll listen to it. But if we're in the rock bottom space, then the only way is up. So you can the only way is through.

SPEAKER_04 16:00

Yeah, through.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

And out.

SPEAKER_04 16:03

Out, yeah. To the next to the next place. And it wasn't, it wasn't meant, I think, as a a negative. I think it was uh meant as a like, let's let's move forward and talk healing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And what did did what does it look like? What does the healing look like? That's where the clip ended. Um so I need to read I actually need to read his Quaking of America.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Me too. Did you read My Grandmother's Hands?

SPEAKER_04 16:31

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Multiple times. Yeah, it's it's an incredible reference. We'll we'll put that in the show notes for folks who haven't read it. He talks specifically about two ideas of white, he calls it white-bodied supremacy, talking about the fact that it's not just a concept that lives sort of in the mind. It's a concept that lives in the body, and that white supremacy is a sickness. It's an illness that's inside the body that it needs to be healed. And once you hear that, you know it, but to understand it as an actual illness, and it goes back to what Pam was saying earlier: this idea that, you know, the light is an antiseptic and the medicine is here and it's shining a light on that wound, and the time is for healing. And it's happening. And we know that when you start to shine light on a wound, healing is is not a lovely process. And it it's challenging and it's difficult and it's uncomfortable. And when something is dying, right, it's not always, it's not always the thing is dying. The thing is dying. I'm good with it. When a a wounded animal is going through these death throes, it's or when illness is leaving the body, when sickness is leaving the body. And so how and how do we as black people find joy as this is happening around us?

SPEAKER_00 17:55

As we always have. We have done this. We have. Like this, this is we've done this through ritual, whatever that looks like. We we've we found the joy through dance and community and gatherings around food and fun and dance and hope. And there are people doing that. I take dance classes when I can. I've I've been kind of lax. And it does bring you joy. When you're dancing, when that body's moving in that way, you really are not focused on the world burning around you. When you go to, I don't know, like a book club event where there's good food and good people and good fun, and you're talking about a really good book, you're not thinking about the horrors. And it doesn't mean that you never think about the horrors. What it means is there's balance that needs to be employed as we are seeking out black joy, is we're seeking out this joy. And to have joy in our lives consistently so that we're able to rest better, so that we're able to care for ourselves better, and so we're able to face what's coming down the pike in a more fortified way. And I I don't think that you, you know, uh some of these self-care people will say, Oh, you need to do self-care so that you can help others, you know. They they immediately, they immediately go to take care of yourself before you take care of others. Like, we know that, but why is it always, let me take care of myself so I can do this thing over here? Why do I need to take care of myself so I can further the ideals of this shitty capitalistic society crumbling around me? Why can I access joy for the purposes of it is my humane, divine right to be able to access it at all times without having these attached attachments, these attached things, outcomes to the joy, which is hard for us in this country to do. We always, if you go to this dance class, how much weight are you gonna lose? If you do this, how much if you you gotta do this 3K or 5K, you know, we're all caught up in that, right? We've all been caught up in it. Because we're looking for the outcome. We're looking for this thing at the end when we need to sit in whatever brings us joy and enjoy each of those moments, revel in each of the present moments that we are experiencing throughout that joy.

SPEAKER_04 20:12

Laughter for laughter's sake.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Watch something crazy. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 20:15

Movie, a TV show, a walk without a destination. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Mm-hmm. That's a hard one for me. But it's something, you know, that I can do, that I can strive towards. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I feel like also that when we when we talk about joy and that that is really the point of living and existing and being here. I think I don't I don't know this for sure, but I feel like people are forgetting that in the midst of all of this mess that we are currently dealing with. Epstein files, people doing horrible things. Why were you put on the planet?

SPEAKER_02 20:53

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

And you and you have this one life. Is it to be worried about how horrible people are consistently? That there there's there's a degree of I need to be concerned. And I will do these things in lieu of that concern, you know. I will do these other things to support that concern. What whatever. But why were you put on the planet? We're supposed to be happy. So those are narratives that I think in the black community we have to fight against. You know, there used to be these kind of things, and the church, the color purple did this really well in the movie from the 80s where, oh, I'm planning to get to heaven. And, you know, which she was like, you need to bash Mr.'s head and then think about heaven later. Like, mm-hmm. Why we think about a place to, if we're 100% honest, don't even know what that's gonna look like, what's gonna be like, what how we gonna be manifest in this space.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

But we know what we do know is right in front of us. And it's right now.

SPEAKER_04 21:47

Mm-hmm. Jesse Williams said that in his speech. The hustle is a hereafter, is the hereafter is a hustle we wanna have. Listen. The hereafter is a hustle. I love that speech. I listen to it a couple of times a year. But I also think like this is where hobbies I think are useful. And to be able to have hobbies that don't have to lead to like a side hustle or another career or this idea of making you rich and being able to detach from capitalism or productivity and just doing something just because it's fun to learn something and that you don't have to be good at it, which I think is also hard for us as a community. There's this idea that you know you have to be good at everything that you try. And if you're not good at it, it shouldn't be something that that you're trying. Singing, or you know, if you like to draw or you try to play an instrument. If you're, you know, if you're not good at it, like we don't do it. But if it brings you joy, why not? If you're painting and it's bringing you joy, then paint. It doesn't matter if, you know, you're not painting a masterpiece. The point is, is that how does it light us up inside? How does it make us feel good? Is it is it helping our nervous system relax? Is it bringing a smile to our face? Is it filling us up with love? Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Yeah. I have um I asked for a um, what do you call it? A keyboard, a picture keyboard, which I have not touched yet, but I guess I got first a Christmas gift, and I'm like, okay, because it's got all these buttons and stuff on it. Like I got the I'm almost like, I just wanted a regular one. But anyway, I I am going to do that for fun. And even if like, even if I take lessons, I'm doing that for fun. I'm not trying to play a concert and I I just want to, you know, I want to do it for fun for myself. You're right. I think often we think, oh, I gotta learn this skill, and then we go get, you know, trained in it, or we take lessons, and then it's like, oh, wait a minute. Maybe I can do this as a side hustle. And then you have 20 side hustles, you know. Pause on that.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Pause and say, maybe this is not the time for that. Maybe this is the time for me to experience if I like it, if there's joy in it, if it has this meditative quality, like I'm getting into um crocheting. I was knitting before and then I stopped. Because this is what I do. I'll start stuff and stop it. Like, you know, I have this, I don't know what's going on. Anyway, I do know I've done that kind of all my life. But I'm I have crocheted, and so I'm going back to crochet, and that's fun. And I'm not making anything. I've been there's these little swatches around, but it's very data for me. It's very, I have my hands and it's it's a soothing kind of thing for me right now. So I'm not looking again at this destination, but I'm enjoying the boys, the trick of being in the present moment of what that means and how I feel in it.

SPEAKER_04 24:49

I've been I try to make um sourdough starters and I'm not good at it. Oh, that's um that's cool. They always seem to just not work out. I don't ever stop though. I am um very committed to the process. And I could just go on, I could just go online and try to find somebody who makes a sourdough starter, but I am very committed to trying to do it myself. I have ordered all different kinds of flour. Um, but I I like just trying it. It's it's fun to try. And I have lots of little jars and then they get really disgusting, and I have to dump them and try them again. But it brings me great joy to try. I love cooking. Cooking is something that brings me great joy.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

And let me know when you get it right. I will, I will, I will. That's me making kombucha. But kombucha is easier, I think, because I you get the scoby from somebody, and sometimes the scobies go bad. I've had to destroy a scoby, but I have the scoby hotel. I made kombucha, I do two brews because I like fruit in mine. So I've gotten kind of good at it.

SPEAKER_04 25:53

Kombucha years ago on um, and I actually made my own Scoby. I was I I was able to do that. I made some decent kombucha on my own. I think maybe that's why I assumed I would be able to make a sourdough starter because I I did that.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

I thought about it. I thought I said, maybe I can make a sourdough starter. And I like bread. And all but the only bread I eat is sourdough just because of the, you know, if I have to eat bread.

SPEAKER_04 26:16

Yeah, because it's supposed, you know, the I just thought the the qualities of the starter would be good for you and fun. So yeah, it's just I think especially now, just finding things that feel feel relaxing. Right. And I think that that's really it too. Not even, I'm not always even looking for joy. Sometimes I'm just looking for something that's just gonna relax my nervous system. I noticed um yesterday, I can't remember. Andrea said something to me, and I felt my eyelids start to twitch. And I was like, ooh, because I just know my nervous system is just really, you know, it's it is very dysregulated just with everything that is happening. And I know it's time to take um a social media break and a news break because I'm just everything that is just happening, I just feel like things are just so close to the surface. And as much as I'm practicing and and trying to tap into regulating my nervous system, I'm tense.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

I think the social media breaks, the watching the excuse me, watching the news less creates the environment and the space for joy to expand. So even in that, even if, okay, my nervous system needs to rest, you pull back from social media, mainstream media, independent media, whatever, and allow that reset to happen, then that can create the the environment, the container for whatever brings you joy in this moment. Creating another starter from scratch, getting on your Peloton like you have a Peloton from you know, like whatever. You you get more time. And what we often do is we'll we'll take a thing that we like doing and combine that with the thing that we think we need in the moment, i.e., you're on the Peloton watching the news as an example, or you're you're on a walk listening to a radio show and they're talking about whatever they're talking about. So I think that it will become important for us going forward to recognize when these things happen. When am I trying to compound on top of a thing that make that brings me joy, when joy was the reason for the season, and I'm still trying to add other things that I need to do in quotations on top of the thing that brings me joy, then there's dissipation. Then then you don't have as much of a full experience as you need to have as it relates to that thing that brings you happiness, joy, contentment. I think, and I'm just speaking for myself because I know I've done this. Oh, let me get this in why while I'm doing this. I'm going for a walk. I like to be outdoors. Maybe I need to listen to this radio station or listen to this podcast. And sometimes I need to be aware of my surroundings by listening to nature, listening to what's outside, listening to my own thoughts, processing those, and having that bring joy to me or create space for other joyous things throughout the day. That's that's the key for me. That's a and that's a practice. That is a consistent, I have to return to this recognition that I do these things to kind of dissipate and lessen the effect of the joy thing that I do.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

If that makes sense. So I that is an active practice that I do. That is very, very much at the forefront of my contemplative practice.

SPEAKER_04 29:37

Mm-hmm. I th one of the things that I do is also checking in with other people about what they're doing. I think is also a big part of noticing what other people are doing, is helpful. My sister sent me something that I actually tagged you on. I think it's called Bring a Sister With You. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, is a movement that is starting to get more black women walking together and starting walking groups. And they're trying to get a million black women walking together between New York, the DMV, and I think it was Philadelphia as well. Um to help us rest, to help us, you know, take a breath, to help us find joy. And I think checking in with one another is is a is another thing that we need to do to remember that especially as Black women, we are we are notorious for trying to double up, right, on activities. I'm gonna find some joy, but let me do some work in the process. Right. It's it's insidious. Like we were talking about in our first episode, that we're so quick to just add on things, you know. Let me find some joy, but but maybe I can get a degree while I do it. Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

We're it we're in the unlearning phase. We we are unlearning. Okay, so it's okay. We are unlearning because we're laughing because that is crazy because both of us have done it. I I had to stop myself, Onika. I was thinking, it's 2026. What trainings have I not taken? I mean, it's you know, like this is this is what crept into my head. Okay, and I I'm like, no, I'm going to sit and allow for the space for joy to be created without me having to go sign up for the next training. Do not take a training.

SPEAKER_04 31:44

Check it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna start, I'm gonna check in on you about that.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

I know, because I really don't already have enough stuff on my plate. I really don't need to do, you know, but I that I have to just be honest, like that crept in my head before. What are you gonna do for self-care? It crept in, like, am I gonna start my monthly massages again? I that fell to the wayside. That's the self-care piece. I feel better generally when I do a monthly massage.

SPEAKER_04 32:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Why did why in 2025, when I needed it the most, did I only do two or three or however many I did when I was teaching like a crazy person in all these different yoga studios? I would I was on top of my massages every month. I was on top. I I didn't waver. And something happened and I stopped and I was like, Nope, we're gonna start that up this year. Tiny things that you we can do. Starting that back. I'm starting, I am gonna take um piano lessons or keyboard lessons, but well, I like that.

SPEAKER_04 32:45

I think one of the issues that happens to me is that when things are going well, I don't also check in on my joy. I'm actually good about finding joy and checking in on taking care of myself when I feel really stressed. I'll make room. But if things are going well, I think that's also when it's important to practice joy. Um, it needs to become a habit. I used to see this when I was working at Rikers. People would come for a meditation and joy practice when they would first get there because it was really tough. And then when they felt like they were sort of adjusting and starting to feel okay, they would stop coming to see me. Ah. And then something would happen, and then they would come back and say, listen, practice is not just for when things are tough. And that's what happens, right? If we find a joy practice or something that helps us feel good when things are bad, then as soon as we start to feel better, we stop practicing. Right. I mean, if we make joy a part of our life all of the time, we don't just associate joy when things are bad, we associate joy just because it's so part of what we should be doing. And I think maybe, you know, and I'm just sort of speculating here, I think for us ancestrally, as you know, part of our DNA of when we were enslaved, we had to find so much joy because there was also so much horror happening in the background. We also need to make joy part of what is happening in our lives when joy is already happening.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 34:19

So it's not just some something that we're making sure that we're we're plugging into when things are really tough. Thought about that right now.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

You know, that brought up for me the movie Get Out. Tell me more. Well, I felt like what we've been talking about recently on and off this podcast is the what we deem as black pay people as the arrival. Okay, I've arrived because I've made $250,000. I've arrived because I am a basketball player dating a white woman. I've arrived because I have a S-class Mercedes in my garage. I've arrived. And the arrival is when, and this is kind of a catch 22, but the arrival is when you stop looking at your surroundings, you slack off. I've arrived, so I'm kind of like these people, and you will never, and why would you want to be? Here, here's the other thing you will never be like these people. And why would you want to be like these people when you come from the originators? So, in that movie, when he's going through that, I mean, at the end, when his friend said, I told you not to date that white woman, that was hilarious, but it was deeper than that. Like, it was like she wasn't, she was like a part of a family that was crazy. Like there was a coveting beyond anything you could have imagined. And Jordan Peele is really good with making that horror and illuminating that, but the coveting was real, and the coveting was such that I think that black people that looked at it were like, oh my God. You know, I remember my sister telling me they were watching, my dad was watching, and he had nightmares. Now, there was it was psychological. It was psychological. The sunken place was psychological, and then you go into the sunken place, and then they were using black bodies to keep living. And what way had that been done during Jim Crow?

SPEAKER_04 36:11

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

During during the Homestead Act, during enslavement. And what way was that done? And what way is that still done as it relates to colonization and appropriation?

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

So there's levels to this shit.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

And so that's the to me, the joy stealer is when you get comfortable because you've arrived. And it's okay to be comfortable, but you need to be comfortable in your own skin, not because of this arrival thing that we ascribe to. But I'm comfortable in my own skin and I'm going to create space for this joy. When you are looking to the arrival, that's when you slip. That's when you look around and you're like the person you thought was is not that person, because that black body was co-opted and being used.

SPEAKER_04 36:55

Well, and that's why we're always talking about in our practices, and and you and I both teach this that the answers are not out there. Like the comfort that you are seeking is not out there. It is always inside. Like the peace that you're seeking and the safety that you're seeking is always inside yourself because there are no safe spaces out there. And so, and and the success that you're seeking, it's it's it's it's not out there either. The joy that you're even seeking isn't out there. The hobby that you're doing for yourself to give yourself joy isn't the hobby itself. It's the satisfaction that you're getting when you're do it, doing it. And that's inside. It's the satisfaction that you're getting inside yourself that you're cultivating inside.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Yeah. I think we've gotten away from that a little because we bought into capitalism, which to some extent we had to. We have to. You want to own a house, you want to, you need a car to get around, you need to get paid, you need to for what your work that you're doing, you need to put food on the table, you need to take care of your kids and your family, you need to do some things. But we have to learn how to better discern when to chew the meat and spit out the bones.

SPEAKER_04 38:07

The marketplace itself isn't bad. Predatory capitalism is an issue, right? Like buying and selling things to take care of yourself and being able to make a living selling something that other people want isn't a bad idea. But when you're starting to take advantage of people because of that, that's when this becomes an issue, right? Like that's a problem. And when when you start to take advantage of a group of people based on that, that's a real issue, right? And and that's what happened happened here. When and then when you take a people's land and you pretend that you discover land that already belonged to somebody else, you know, and base a whole system on that, that's an that that's a real problem. And then when you steal bodies to cultivate that stolen land, that's a problem. Um, but but simply having a marketplace, you know, that's not an issue. And I think we've also mixed those two things up as well.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

I agree.

SPEAKER_04 39:00

And I think we need to I think we need to have those conversations as well, too. And we've mixed that up. We've sort of said that everything associated with that is bad. And we tend to do that. We go to these extremes. And I think because we try to see things through this one lens, which is this white gaze, and we don't have these conversations that come from our original place and our original story. Um, and I think that's what we also need to go back to. But it's hard, you know? I think I think it's really challenging.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

It is. Challenges can be overcome. It is very challenging. And I think at the point that we are in in this current state of affairs of our society, we are at the precipice that we have to have to overcome the challenge or challenges. We have to consistently do that so that joy can seep in. There, there's no should we or could, you know, can we, there's no asking for permission to experience joy. We do it. And then, yes, when we do it in sometimes open spaces, there is the coveting that comes with that. And sometimes people have to squash that. So in these spaces, like you said, there are no safe spaces. Where can you create contained, brave spaces to experience joy? This is because people are so this is getting harder. This is a challenge, you know. And I'm thinking about that shooting in that church where that boy went in and shot, those sat down in church, they welcomed him, and he shot up nine people, then got the cops, picked him up, and went and stopped by McDonald's or Burger King to feed him after he had just so you think that these places of worship, that these places of communing are safe. And really they should be. They should be safe enough. You know, I I you know, damn.

SPEAKER_04 40:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

You should not have to face horrors in a place that the in in in in places that we've cultivated.

SPEAKER_04 40:56

I mean, our homes aren't even safe. Look at Brianna Taylor, you know? Right. Can't even be can't even be safe. I used to think, I used to think, you know, I wrote about that in my book. Like I used to think I would come home and exhale because I thought my my home was safe.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

Yep, they're gonna bust in, and that's why I believe in the Second Amendment.

SPEAKER_04 41:13

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

I'm just gonna which they're also now they're they're talking about gun control.

SPEAKER_04 41:17

Now now gun now we get gun control.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

I say, oh, oh, because you saw Black Panthers and in liberal. Right. Okay, here's a clue though. They've had, do you know how many liberals I know that it's like I'm like, and there's gonna be a lot of just messiness. But the thing is crumbling, it's crumbling, and I'm that gives me some joy. It gives me joy. Joy, a little bit of joy sprinkled in on top because it invites creative people, and we are a creative people, it's in our DNA, to come up with something new. This will not be something new. It won't be hard for creative people, it won't be difficult for creative people to come up with something brand new and brand and amazing and wonderful and closer to, I would say, homeostasis. I won't use the word utopia or anything like that. No, but closer to a more balanced thing where we can say, oh, society is moving in this direction.

SPEAKER_04 42:16

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Because we're grown and we need to start doing grown people shit.

SPEAKER_04 42:19

Yeah, and even and even when there are problems, that's okay. Cause we've been there, like that's okay. Even if we can just start, even if we can just start having nuanced conversations. I'm just so tired of these conversations that just are like in such a binary. It's either one, one thing or another. Can we just can we just start having nuanced conversations? That would just be nuts.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

That's true.

SPEAKER_04 42:43

Can we just can we just have arguments with one another and and not have it be like, you know, the the end of the world? Can two people just have an argument and it not mean that you don't talk to each other ever again or or somebody ends up dead because of it? Like that would be that would be great.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

No, you can't nobody can disagree anymore.

SPEAKER_04 43:01

That that would be really that would be really lovely. That would that would bring me some joy to be able to, you know. That happened on Christmas Eve. Andrea and I went over to a friend's and and we had we had a knockdown drag out argument over a documentary, and it was amazing. I mean, we were arguing.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

It was it an argument or a disagreement? You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_04 43:24

No, it was no, it was it was heated, heated, passionate debate. Okay. You know, very passionate. People had their stance. It was really heated, and everybody went home friends. It was really, it was lovely. We even said midway, it's really great that we can do this. Like we even, because we even knew how unusual it was in these times for people not to be able to do that, but to have have friends that we knew we could not agree about something and to be able to argue about it. And know that it wouldn't tear up a friendship because even now people are losing friendships because they don't know how to have a disagreement anymore.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Yes, that's true. And some people are losing friendships because those were those friendships were coming to an end because Oh, well yes.

SPEAKER_04 44:16

I'm not saying Yes. But you know I also think many folks just have lost the ability to learn how to hold right conflicting views. I'm not talking about morality. You're not talking about morality. Like I'm not talking about I'm not talking about morality. I'm just talking about people being able to hold conflicting views. Like let me make that clear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not talking yeah. Um I'm talking about even people who are on the same sides of things too. I mean I'm really talking about my progressive brethren looking at you. Like folks not being able to agree on certain things, because I I think this is gonna be a problem for us going forward, that we're we're not able to put aside certain things to be able to come together to be able to move forward and reimagine certain things if we're if we're not able to, you know, manage some conflict. Anyway, I digress.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

That is it's conflict management. That's what it is. I don't know. There were there used to be people who could handle and did facilitate conflict resolution in organizations in in spaces where some of these harder topics would come up. And I don't know what's happening. I I don't know what's I don't know what's going on with that. I and I also think that in some of these spaces and or instances, the wrong people are being brought in to facilitate some of those conversations. You know, I I don't that's my concern. And I think that if we can get to a place where it's nice to have arguments, it's nice to have disagreements and handle conflict in a loving way, like we all love everybody in this space, and we're just disagreeing on this documentary, right? Then that's that's part of life. That's like the ebb and flow of life. So where did we always have to agree? When when did it happen? When was the turning point of people having to agree on everything to be friends and to and to find joy? Because quite frankly, that's boring.

SPEAKER_04 46:23

It's boring Because something happened, but something did happen, don't you think?

SPEAKER_00 46:27

Yeah. Like Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:29

Something happened where you to find joy and to laugh with people meant only like you can only agree with them now. I I don't I don't know when that happened.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Do you think it was social media was part of that?

SPEAKER_04 46:43

I do. You know what? Yes. So I guess I d I do know. I think that's definitely part of it. And I think I do think tone policing is part of it. I think cancel culture became a part of it too. Because I do have I do have problems with cancel culture. And you know, you can you know, you can at me about that for folks listening. But, you know, I think and maybe maybe this is a sign of my age, but I think I think it's it's important to allow people to grow and and change because you know, I'm I'm fifty-four and I know before social media I said some really stupid things in in my twenties and my thirties.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:25

That didn't get caught on that didn't get caught. And I right, yeah. But I happened to grow and I changed and yeah, yeah. I I am a better I'm not a better person. I I'm just I grew as a person and I understand more and I am grateful that I understand more. But to be held accountable for every single thing, yeah, I I think that's part of it too.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 47:48

Mm-hmm. This idea that that everything that people said that's being recorded that we hold people accountable to. It's just there's no grace, it seems like, for certain things.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

Except when it's convenient. Except and when it's convenient, because a lot of people are getting a lot of grace that they should not be getting.

SPEAKER_04 48:08

Exactly. Yes. Certain people get grace and then other people don't get grace, and then some people, then that then the grace gets switched sometimes, and some people do, depending on who who you are, depending who's giving it. And it happens everywhere. It's it happens everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Right. It does. I it's it's the picking and choosing of who gets the grace, who gets the the pass, and who doesn't. And often more often than not, black people aren't getting the grace. You know where I was going. You know where I was going. You knew where I was going, because that's just fact. Because it's fact. Okay, we we were thinking on the same wavelength, because it is the truth, because it is steeped in satya truth. It is, is this is the truth of the matter. Uh, you know, it is it. And so I think when we look at that, that's why we're trying to cultivate spaces for ourselves. We're like, well, shit, if it's gotta be, it's gonna be like this on this broader scale, then we we don't have to be involved over here. We can do our own thing over here. The problem is when the covenant comes in and people also some people want to come over and then they want to co-opt and then they want to appropriate and then whatever. And then when you get called out, then you want to spiritually bypass. It's like like a a cycle of insanity. And, you know, we're tired. We we we're sick and tired of being sick and tired. Fan Lou Hamer said it best. Like we are, so that's why we're moving differently. That's why we're moving uh intentionally into our joy, into our happy places, into the spaces that keep us content and whole and healthy. This is why we are in places, in environments where we can laugh out loud.

SPEAKER_04 49:42

It's so triggering for people, too.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

It is. Have you ever been at a restaurant? I mean, I used to you you go out with your friends, and you know you're gonna, especially if there's alcohol involved, you're gonna get turned up. You're gonna be loud, you're gonna be laughing and cackling and people looking at you like, and I'm like, so mad. Do you want some of this joy? Do you do you want, do you covet the joy? Are you just gonna be mad? Sometimes people come over because they want a piece, because they are attracted. You know, like they're like y'all get mad. What's going on over here? I'm being out I I'm nosy. I'm coming over. They want to get involved. They but at the root of the stuff that we're dealing with right now is jealousy.

SPEAKER_04 50:22

And hearing I also think disbelief, like how did how did we do it? How did we how did we like how did we manage to do it? How did we manage to survive and not only survive, how did we thrive? How did we still manage to do all that we did and and still keep going? Like it's it's shocking.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

It is a it's a baffling thing, but it's not baffling to us. No. The answer is because we've had to. That never may because it's in our DNA. It's not even magic. Like it's not. I mean, I know we say black girl magic. But you try it. You try it. It's because you go through 400 years of oppression. And then get back to me, and we're giving you an opportunity right now. That's what they're faced with. And and and they're tapping out. Here's your chance. Here's your chance. They're tapping out. It's six months. I can't take it. I can't, and we're and black people are like, listen, you you're not down, you're not really down for the you know, you can't do it. So move aside. That's all we're saying. Don't be in our faces about this shit. How we move in the in the during these times, how we find joy in these times, how we do self-care in these times, how we create health and wholeness and wellness in our communities in these times. Don't come in here trying to tell us how to do that. When you haven't faced your own demons, and I'm talking about face them for a significant amount of time. Face them. Some of those demons are your uncles and aunties and family members that you went home to during Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving and and Christmas and couldn't say shit to. Don't come, who are you? You can't even talk to your own family about some bullshit, yeah, the racist thing they did, and you want to try to tell black people, listen, no, the answer is no. It is a resounding no, and boundaries are hard for people to recognize. And we didn't put up the boundaries. We said, this is how we're doing it. Step aside. This is how we're going to show up in these moments. Move aside. This is how we are going to proceed.

SPEAKER_04 52:33

Exactly. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

It isn't, there's nothing wrong with it. It it's a boundary. When there's a boundary that has been set that you have not seen collectively before, that's that's what's going on here. And that boundary is set with love, joy, peace, grace, and also a very keen knowledge of our own history and the history of this nation. That's when that that's what it is. That's what's upsetting people.

SPEAKER_04 52:56

Mm-hmm. People don't like when black people decide to do something different. And that's frustrating, right? When accepting that we are both not a monolith and yet there are things that we can do collectively. Because I think those are two different things. I don't even think I'm wrong in saying that. Am I wrong in saying that? That we're not a monolith, but we do have sort of a collective consciousness.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

Yeah. I know why you I I feel like I know why you're saying that. I feel like, yes, there's you can't assume things about us. Right. And collectively, for the most part, yes.

SPEAKER_04 53:37

We said we're going to Because I think our collective consciousness, because I think collective consciousness is related to us culturally as black people, because not all skin folk is kin folk. Because I think people who aren't close to us by proximate to culture wouldn't wouldn't count. I'm talking Nikki. I'm talking other people, all these other people, right? Yeah. Right. Like, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

Yeah. I agree with that. I think we've always had that. There there were black slave catchers. You know, we've always had they're not all kinfolk or skin folk people around. And that's going to continue because they're they're if you're steeped in in in white nationalism and in whiteness as a as a disease that it is, then you're gonna you're gonna keep doing what you're doing if you're used to doing that. People who know are going to move differently, and that's the collective consciousness I think that you're using too. It's more of when when people were pissed at these artwork and people saying, I'm gonna sit on top of the building and sip my tea and watch the shit burn. We knew what that meant collectively, generally. Like we're gonna sit, we're gonna not sit it out, but we're gonna sit it out in the way that you're used to seeing us being in the streets. We're gonna still pro do what we gotta do, divest whatever boycott behind the scenes, because again, in referencing the civil rights movement, that was not just marching. And I really wish I want people to understand it was an amalgamation of different tools and techniques to get the shit that we needed to get done. Voting rights, you know, act, you know, Jim Crow needed to go away. Like there was a lot of stuff. And to the point, black and brown brown people and other immigrants have benefited from the work that was done on the ground and in other places of the civil rights movement. So that is how we move. We have gotten quieter about what that looks like because people don't know how to keep their mouth shut. Social media is, I don't know, you just if you put it out there, it's out there. People are meeting in homes, in community centers, having discussions on Zoom, doing these other creative ways of saying what can we do to get to the problem while having space for joy, having space for experiences of happiness. So it's not just because you don't know about it, you know, doesn't mean the shit isn't happening. We've gotten quieter because we know when we talk, then next, you're either stealing it, not not giving us credit. So we do what we do, and that's the movement. And it doesn't look like you'll see the result. We we do the journey thing, and then there will be an end result, and people are always focused on the results. They're focused on I'm angry and I'm mad right now, and I'm in my feelings right now, which is valid. Your feelings are valid, and my joy is more important than how you're feeling about the boundary that we set. My joy is definitely the most simple. So there's that.

SPEAKER_04 56:27

There's that, and that's a wrap.

SPEAKER_00 56:29

That's a wrap.

SPEAKER_04 56:30

So, how are you all gonna find your joy this week? I think that's the that's the question, and that's the assignment. Find your joy this week. What's the one thing that you'll do this week? Just start to even look for your joy, even if you don't know what that thing is, and you start to look. We thank you for listening. Stay well, and we will see you soon. See you later. Thanks for listening to YouGood. Follow us on Substack at Ugood Collective.substack.com. Find us on YouTube at at yougood podcast for us. Like, share, subscribe to keep the conversation going. Got something to say? Email us at yougoodpodmail at gmail.com. Until next time, be good.